MVix GPL
I really like my MVix MX-760HD. It's been a great little media device for me, even if it does take me a really long time to rip our Monty Python collection to MP4 format! Next up, our Mystery Science Theater 3000 DVDs.
One of the reasons I was initially attracted to the MX-760HD was its use of GNU/Linux inside. It uses the uClinux kernel, which is designed specifically for embedded systems. I want to support companies that make use of GNU/Linux. I'm also interested in seeing what third-party developers can do with the hardware through use of the GNU/Linux operating system.
I'm not much of a hardware hacker, and I'm certainly not an embedded developer, but I admit to being intrigued by the notion of third-party firmware for the MX-760HD. The LinkSys WRT54G is a terrific example of the value of an open, hackable system: the third party firmware offerings turn this $70 device into something vastly more functional than what's provided by the default firmware. Most consumers won't need anything other than the default, but for those customers who are interested in more, it's available to them. This, to me, is the real value of Linux in appliance hardware: your customers can use your product for what they want.
I sent an enquiry to MVix USA's contact page asking for the source code the uClinux kernel they use. I'm interested in learning more about the hardware inside -- specifically the CPU and the network adapters. There's little I can do with this stuff myself, but a fellow COLUG member is an embedded developer, and I'd like to pick his brain about some of this.
I received a rather unhelpful reply from MVix USA's marketing department:
As per our contract with the development and manufacturing partners we do not have an authorization to release the firmware sourcecode under GPL. As you know, we are primarily the marketers and distributors of Mvix brand products and hence have to abide by the policies and contractual obligations of our manufacturing partners and developers.
Unfortunate, but I can't be too upset with the marketing staff not being familiar with the intricacies of the GNU GPL. I replied, expressing my disappointment, but heard nothing back.
A few days ago a gentleman named Rich K. from MVix USA sent me an email, hoping to capitalize on my zeal for the MX-760HD, asking how they might help me continue to advocate and evangalize their product. Normally, I'd be quite happy to do this. I took the opportunity to ask Rich for the GPL sources used in the MX-760HD:
I was _very_ excited to read about your use of Linux inside the MX-760HD, though I've been disappointed with my lack of success obtaining the source code to your kernel, as required by the GNU GPL license under which Linux is
distributed. I am sure _a lot_ of people would love to be able to hack on an MX-760HD in the same ways that they hack on Linksys WRT-54G routers. Small, functional Linux systems are very interesting to all sorts of users, and the more you enable us to use them in unique ways, the more units you're likely to sell.
Rich's reply was less than helpful:
We are the marketing, distribution and customer-support arm of our brand. As per our contract with our partners, we do not have adequate access to the source code, neither does our contractual obligations allow us for release of any codes. While we respect your suggestion, we regret that we cannot help. Our sincere apologies.
I replied, asking Rich for contact information for the development branch of MVix, or indeed of anyone who would be in a position to facilitate my request. I made it clear that I wasn't interested in any proprietary software or codecs -- I was only seeking that code that is governed by the terms of the GPL:
Can you please provide me with an email address or telephone number for your development folks? I'm not interested in any proprietary bits inside the MX-760HD: I'm solely interested in getting the kernel config files you've used, so that I can evaluate it.
I have not yet received a reply; and since it's been about 10 days since I sent it, I'm no longer expecting a reply.
I was willing to chalk up the initial refusal to provide source code as mostly ignorance of the issue. But Rich's reply suggests to me a slightly more intentional failure to comply with the license terms. Now, the MX-760HD is not manufacturer by MVix USA. Rather, it is manufactured by Unicorn Information Systems Co. Ltd. (Korea). I have just sent an email to Unicorn, asking them for the GPL licensed source to the Linux kernel used in the device. However, I am still of the opinion that MVix USA has an obligation to make the source code available to its customers. This is remarkably similar to the recent situation with MEPIS Linux's GPL non-compliance.
I'll be sure to post more details as they develop. If you're an MX-760HD owner, do please send a polite request to both MVix USA and Unicorn asking for the Linux source code. Feel free to share your results in the comments below.
I would like to take the opportunity to warn people. Do not buy the first LinkSys WRT54G router you find if you want to use Linux on it.
The reason is that the router in question has seven different versions. If you buy a newer router than 4.0 (it's up at 7.0 today) you'll get a router with 2MB RAM and 8MB Flash. Instead of 4MB RAM and 16MB Flash as it used to be up until and including version 4.0. The newer versions of this router can not yet run OpenWrt according to their hardware page.
What can you do then? Linksys were friendly enough to release a special version for the Linux hungry crowd. It's the same router as the WRT54G but this one is called WRT54GL. This is the router you want. It's got 4MB RAM and 16MB Flash (as it's the same router as the WRT54G V 4.0).
I wanted to give a heads up so that no poor visitor goes and buys a WRT54G. As it's most likely a version higher than 4.0 that person will get. So. There are your heads up. :)
I made an error above. Exchange all occurances of Flash and RAM to get it right. (The router you want will have 16MB RAM and 4MB Flash.)
Actually, Kent, there is a firmware for at least version 5 of the WRT54G: WRT54G5 CFE. I do have a v5 WRT54G, but I haven't used this yet. Your clarification is a good one though. If you're interested in Linux on a WRT54G, take care to buy the WRT54GL model. Remember: L for Linux! ;)
Ah! I only checked for OpenWrt for which my statement holds. Using DD-WRT is an option for you with version 5.0-7.0. Nice that you have a way too.
Still. As you say as well. Getting the WRT54GL is the way to go for that extra RAM and Flash space. They cost roughly the same.
I'm really excited to get going with mine!
Also worth considering is the WRTSL54GS as it has even more RAM and Flash space plus an USB-2.0 port. You can connect a hard/flash-drive to it and mount it. Seems pretty neat.. Oh well, I've already placed my order. :-)
A similar problem occured with another Linux based device from Korea; Gamepark Holdings GP2x handheld game console. It seems that in the rush to get the product to market they imbedded proprietary code in the kernal. Here's some info on that situation:
http://wiki.gp2x.org/wiki/GPL_Violation
I have a gut feeling a similar situation has occured here.
BTW; I love both my 760HD and my GP2x!!!
I'm in a similar conversation with mvix over the mv5000u. mvix don't appear to be aware they are violating the GPL, nor that if they're not able to provide the source that they're not legally able to distribute the firmware.
FYI: Note posted on http://www.mvixusa.com/support/index.php?_m=downloads&a=view regarding releasing sourcecode.
Mvix(USA), Inc. is a marketer and distributor of Consumer Electronics in US, Canada and South-American subcontinent. As per our contractual relationship with our developing and manufacturing partners, we have the exclusive responsibility of marketing and distributing Mvix-brand Media Centers and providing adequate technical support to our customers. Unfortunately, we do not have an any access to the firmware sourcecode or any authorization for public release under GPL.
We respect your request for a public release of the firmware sourcecode. We invite you to contact our manufacturing partner and developer directly for information in this regard:
Unbo B/D 226-16, Sukchon-Dong,
Songpa-Gu, Seoul, S. Korea
Tel. 82 2 420 2713 (Ext 202) | Fax. 82 2 420 2723
Yep, they pointed me at that.
There's no doubt they themselves are violating the GPL, and hence all the firmware available on their website is illegal/unlicsened/pirated software.
This is a good reference page:
http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-violation.html
I've sent an email to Unicom, but have had no reply, and it is mvix themselves that have to sort out this issue to be able to continue distributing their products.
This should be brought up on the GPL Violators lists. See http://gpl-violations.org/ for more info. They can actually help move this forward by contacting the people who actually own the copyrights and getting them to start the legal process (sending official legal letters informing the companies that that are violating the license). It is very effective (100% compliance rate so far, and they have only had to go to trial once or twice, iirc). The usual effect is once the legal department of the company in question sees what is really going on, they release the complete source with relevant modifications. Occasionally, they stop distributing the product, but that is rare.
Already done:
http://lists.gpl-violations.org/pipermail/legal/2007-February/001008.html
:-D
Since parts of uClinux belong to/are the copyright material of the free software foundation (eg. parts of the uclibc), I've also brought the matter to their attention.
No replies yet but I'll try to remember to drop back with an update if I hear anything.
mvix support have taken to closing my support ticket without replying after running out of canned responses. Still trying that route...
How do you folks know that 760HD contains uclinux? or any GPL-based Kernel?
Go talk to Sigma designs... they have their own proprietary SDK etc.. thats exactly what is being used in these devices. maybe you are simply wasting your time here.
Up until yesterday, this link:
http://www.mvixusa.com/support/index.php?_m=knowledgebase&_a=viewarticle&kbarticleid=36
stated that the players were based upon uClinux.
mvix have never denied this, until today when they have changed the content of the above page.
The text is now very confusing and avoiding answering the question. sigma designs are also /very/ well known for violating the GPL multiple times.
Chris, I suspect you're just an mvix employee, and a fictional name at that given google has zero matches for your name.
It will be very easy to prove whether the firmware contains linux software or not. It have been proved before that sigma's "proprietary sdk" is based on uClinux and subject to (and violating) the GPL.
Also mvix's own advertising material:
http://images10.newegg.com/UploadFilesForNewEgg/itemintelligence/MvixUSA/82-994-003/MX760HD_Handout_SpecSheet.pdf
Page 3:
"Operating system - ucLinux"
The ThinkGeek product page for the MX-760HD still lists it as running ucLinux.
Has anyone run an nmap scan against the MX-760HD to see what TCP/IP stack is being used?
Chris: if the MX-760HD were not running GPL code, don't you think that MVix USA would state that unequivocably to us when we ask for the source code per the terms of the GPL? Rather than dodge the issue with phrases like "As per our contract with our partners, we do not have adequate access to the source code, neither does our contractual obligations allow us for release of any codes"; they could simply say "Nope, no Linux here!"
if what you guys are saying is true? then shouldnt companies like newegg and thinkgeek also be in legal trouble? they are also distributing this product? why? why not?
Even microcenter is doing the same ! - does distribution of "product" makes one liable for GPL violation!?
am i missing something here?
oh! and BTW, you may want to remove MVIX brand name from this site... you might be violating their trademark !! ha ha
You might want to add that the OEM is "Unicorn" and that the chip is Sigma. There are previous threads about Sigma's OEMs using their SDK (which has open source components at least) and not releasing their firmware under the GPL. In fact, the posting just prior to your is one of them (http://lists.gpl-violations.org/pipermail/legal/2007-February/001007.html). There are several techniques for determining if a formware image is using GPL code. I won't mention them here, since there is a good possibility someone is watching and might take measures to obscure the facts and that would mean a little more work on the copyright owner and the customer's part (still very doable, just more work). I would suggest downloading all the firmware images on the site right away, so you have proof before they start modifying them. The gpl-violators site has a "tech" list that can help you prove that the code is derived from GPL source. It is actually pretty fun doing the sleuthing. You learn all sorts of things...
There's a guy who goes under the name of AntiVirus over at the www.avsforum.com forums who is running hacked versions of the mx-760hd firmware. This is one of the factors that made me order mine earlier on today. I'd love to know more about the abilities of the embedded linux to run small linux applications like web browsers. Can't wait til it arrives :D
Thanks Greg.
Here's a link to antivirus' posts. He seems to be having some luck contacting unicom:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/search.php?searchid=1874755
most interesting one:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9747136#post9747136
Also new stuff on mvix's site:
http://www.mvixusa.com/support/index.php?_m=knowledgebase&_a=viewarticle&kbarticleid=72
I particularily like this bit:
"By downloading or using anything of this SOURCE CODE you have to comply with the GPL License it is bound under. All GPL source code, files and information from this project is marked to be freely distributed, and shall not be sold to a mass market."
I've not looked through them yet....
Firmware source code released! Check out the story on Gizmos for Geeks:
I don't believe the source code is complete yet.
It's a requirement of the (L)GPL that you release the tools to be able to recreate any composite image that is distributed.
All that's been posted so far is a patched uclinux and busybox source code. There are no details or scripts for creating the firmware images (although antivirus on avsforum seems to think he's worked it out?)
They've also not done anything for the MV-5000U...
(Their attitude to their customers is also very bad.)
Joseph, you seem to be from the UK. MvixUSA is a U.S.A. based company, that only sells in the U.S.A... So how (and why?) can you judge what their attitude towards their customers is? I've had nothing but a good experience with their customer service. Even though they have no responsibility to release the GPL (as far as I can tell they are simply a distributor) they did it anyways.
Fred M: according to the terms of the GPL, if you distribute a GPL-licensed product, you are bound to abide by the terms. Even though MVix USA might not have acquired the GPL source code from the hardware manufacturer, they should have, and as such are bound to make the code available to their customers.
I encourage you (and everyone) to read the GNU GPL, particularly items #3 and #6.
fred, I am indeed from the UK, and I have a MV-5000U purchased from one of Mvix USA's resellers.
I have also downloaded the *european* firmware from mvixusa's website, and I have been in contact with their support department, so I'm in a very good place to judge their attitudes towards their customers.
Rather than actually talk to their customers, they'll fob you off with pre-canned responses or just close your tickets with no reply. I have proof to back this up; drop me an email and I'll send it to you if you like.
As skippy says, mvixusa distributed the firmware to me which included GPL software, and hence they are either bound by the terms of the GPL, or are (perhaps initially unknowingly) distributing illegal software - it's really that simple!
Skippy, I read the page you linked and no.3 and 4 and didnt get any answer to my question. If what you say is true, then could you simply clarify this. -
The following companies (large-resellers) "distribute" products (not just Mvix) which contain GPL-based firmware:
1) Compusa
2) Microcenter
3) Amazon
4) Thinkgeek
5) Frys
6) Bestbuy
(This is a small list from MY knowledge of the kind of products that these places resell as distributors).
From what you say, are these guys NOT liable as well!? Why do we not try to get them as well!?
As a lawyer, I am feeling there is some money to be made out of this. (.. and I can use this blog in my case against the above companies)
dranger: I am not an attorney, so I cannot provide legal advice or guidance. Nothing on this website should indicate anything other than my personal understanding of the situation.
My understanding is that any company that distributes GPL-licensed code is obligated to make the source code available, per the terms of the GPL. So yes, you (or anyone) should feel free to contact these organizations to ask them to provide to you the source code in question.
In this specific instance, contacting any of the distributors would have been a wasted effort, because the organization from which they obtained the product containing GPL-licensed code (MVix USA) was not making that code available. As such, the companies you listed would have been in the same boat as us consumers.
Now that MVix USA has released (some) source code, it is completely reasonable to ask the companies listed above to obtain and archive that source code, and to make it available to their customers.
All of this could have been avoided in the beginning had MVix USA (or its manufacturing partners) simply included the GPL-licensed source code on the CD that shipped with the product. Then (as I understand it) each organization along the supply chain would have been fully complying with the terms of the GPL by default!
Skippy, I think you provide a convoluted argument by this:
"In this specific instance, contacting any of the distributors would have been a wasted effort, because the organization from which they obtained the product containing GPL-licensed code (MVix USA) was not making that code available."
Isnt this exactly what MvixUSA has been saying all along!? MvixUSA="distributor" (NOT the manufacturer of the product). How have we been expecting MvixUSA to provide the sourcecode when MvixUSA itself was not supplied by the sourcecode by its manufacturer?
your opinion does not matter - its a legal issue. And from what I understand its not just this brand... the above resellers/retailers/distributors all distribute similar products without the GPL included in any of their CD. I dont think these large corporations dont look into this issue at all. They do and they do realize that distributing products does not REQUIRE sourcecode distribution on a CD ! Now, I am starting to doubt the interpretation of this whole GPL distribution issue.
Either I am missing something here or this whole thing is nothing but a big farce!
dranger, there's a very clear difference between been a reseller (like thinkgeek) and producing a non-complying product with your company name all over it (like mvix did). Yes, both are violating the GPL, but the severity of the violation is somewhat different. likewise, as Unicorn never actually distributed anything to us, we had no claim against them under the GPL, only mvix did/do.
I really don't see how you hope to many any money out of this, the only people that would be due damages are the copyright holders (which doesn't include any of us), and they're highly unlikely to want to do anything now mvix are releasing their source code.
dranger: you're right, my opinion does not matter. I do encourage interested parties to seek professional legal advice.
You are correct in that the source code to a product does not need to be distributed with the product. The GPL merely says that the source code must be made available for no more than the cost of media duplication and transmission, as necessary. My comment above merely highlighted the fact that all of this current hooplah could have been avoided had the GPL source code been included from the beginning.
You are also correct in reminding us that MVix is a distributor of a product, and not the creator of that product. But as Joseph Heenan observes above, MVix is the only distributor of this specific product, and they only recently provided contact information for the original equipment manufacturer. It should be pointed out that in all of my email conversations with MVix USA, they never once pointed me toward the OEM, or provided me with any means to contact them.
Lest anyone reading this far into the comments of this post get the wrong idea: I am delighted with the MVix MX-760HD. It perfectly satisfies my particular needs, and I do not regret the purchase at all. I'm pleased to see that the source code is being made available, and I hope that MVix USA continues to update the firmware.
Hi Skippy,
I am just surprised how this whole discussion is turning out...
"..But as Joseph Heenan observes above, Mvix(USA) is THE ONLY distributor of this specific product,..."
This is NOT true, you guys are smart enough to google and find this:
www.mvix.co.il
www.mvix.co.uk
www.mvix.nl
www.mvix.co.za
i.e. MvixUSA is NOT the only company distributing its product... i.e. MvixUSA is NOT the only company with its "NAME ALL OVER IT" !! Who knows where Joseph or whoever bought its product from? How does that matter anyways? I mean c'mmon... are we talking common sense here?
If you look at MvixUSA's website, you will also notice that they are NOT only selling OEM products from ONE company... i.e. they are not very different from Bestbuy, Compusa, Radioshack that also sell self-branded product!
Next, you are incorrect in saying that:
"It should be pointed out that in all of my email conversations with MVix USA, they never once pointed me toward the OEM, or provided me with any means to contact them...."
Again, I am surprised you say this. pls. see this comment up here on YOUR OWN blog:
http://www.skippy.net/blog/2007/01/26/mvix-gpl/#comment-14487
What changes if they provide you with this contact information? How did the conversation on this topic change? Even after this information was provided, here's what you state:
"...Even though MVix USA might not have acquired the GPL source code from the hardware manufacturer, they should have, and as such are bound to make the code available to their customers...." Refer: http://www.skippy.net/blog/2007/01/26/mvix-gpl/#comment-14562
Yet another, you state:
"You are correct in that the source code to a product does not need to be distributed with the product."
Again, refer to you previous post/statement:
"...according to the terms of the GPL, if you distribute a GPL-licensed product, you are bound to abide by the terms..." i.e. distribute the sourcecode along with the product. Refer here: http://www.skippy.net/blog/2007/01/26/mvix-gpl/#comment-14562
Now you are basically negating everything that you have been posting on this page/issue...?
I am somehow feeling uneasy about this whole thing here, which you guys made such a big deal about. shamelessly mislead.
How come upholoding GPL/GNU is moral but lying is not!? Guys, are we just being selfish?
dranger: If you're so distressed by the commentary on this site, then why do you continue to read it? I've clearly stated that I am not an attorney, and all of the commentary on this site is nothing but my opinion. It may be uninformed opinion. You are free to draw your own opinions, and if you have recourse to professional legal counsel than I assume you can draw more informed opinions than my own. If you're looking to shame me in some way by exposing my ignorance, I'm afraid you'll be sorely disappointed: I'm well aware of my ignorance, and make no claims to the contrary.
But let's evaluate your complaint against my opinion:
Wow, you're right, MVix USA is not the only distributor of this product. But wait a tick, all of those other distributors all have "MVix" in their URL, and indeed the links refer specifically to an "MVix" branded product. So perhaps my verbage in my post above was poorly chosen: surely ThinkGeek -- the company from whom I purchased my MVix -- is also a distributor. I don't know the specific term to use to describe "the company from which all other companies obtain a product". MVix can't be called the "original equipment manufacturer" (that appears to be Unicorn), but it does seem clear to me that all the other distributors are obtaining their MVix products through MVix. All of the links you provided clearly show an MVix-branded product. So, since everyone is selling MVix branded products, it makes sense to seek GPL source code from the brand name.
I don't claim to understand the specific relationship between MVix USA and its OEMs. I do know that my MX-760HD has the name "Unicorn" on it, and that brand name is also referenced in the manual. I see that MVix USA's website sells both "MVix" brand solutions and "Unicorn" brand solutions. The "Icarus" brand products listed on the MVix USA website look remarkably similar to the BN-640 and BW-740 listed at Unicorn's website. Indeed, those two product pages clearly say "Icarus". This leads me to believe that MVix is only selling a specific manufacturer's (namely Unicorn's) products. That's substantially different from Best Buy, who sells their store brand "Insignia" along with Sony, Panasonic, Phillips, etc etc.
The comment you linked from Tekkno Genius links to a page on MVix USA's website. I don't see the specific copy that Tekkno Genius quotes anywhere on that page, so I'm not sure where he found that. I don't recall having seen anything like that when I looked at MVix USA's website originally, but it's entirely possible that I missed it. If that page were present at the time of my original email exchange with MVix USA, surely someone there could have pointed me toward it.
You ask "What changes if they provide you with this contact information?" The answer is "nothing, really". It would have made me feel a bit better if MVix USA helped me pursue the acquisition of the GPL source code, but it certainly would not have relieved them from GPL compliance. The comment of mine that you link immediately following points out that MVix is bound by the terms of the GPL regardless of whether the GPL source code was given to them or not. They received from upstream a product that utilized GPL licensed code. By re-distributing that product, they trigger the conditions of the GPL.
You mis-represent my comments when you say ""…according to the terms of the GPL, if you distribute a GPL-licensed product, you are bound to abide by the terms…" i.e. distribute the sourcecode along with the product.". I never said "i.e. distribute the sourcecode along with the product." -- that was added by you. The GPL very clearly states that you do not need to deliver source code with your product. You must make the source code available to those who ask for it. The distinction is important. I suggested that all of this would have been easily avoided if the GPL source code was distributed with the product, but that is not at all the same thing as saying that this is mandated by the terms of the GPL.
A few links to the Free Software Foundation's Frequently Asked Question about the GPL:
http://www.fsf.org/licensing/licenses/gpl-faq.html#WhatDoesWrittenOfferValid
http://www.fsf.org/licensing/licenses/gpl-faq.html#DoesTheGPLAllowDownloadFee
http://www.fsf.org/licensing/licenses/gpl-faq.html#DistributeWithSourceOnInternet
Again, I am not an attorney, and nothing in my comments here or above should be considered legal advice. The FSF has attorneys who are intimately familiar with the terms of the GPL. If you have specific concerns, your best bet would be to contact the FSF. My understanding is that they are very eager to help companies do the right thing with respect to GPL compliance.
MX-760HD is a great product. Best so far. Non of the big companies giving us something like this.
So you from competition better start making some good products and stop complaining.
xspale
I figured as this is getting to be a popular discussion of the mvix, I'd inform all that a wiki for hacking the 760-hd has been setup at:
http://mvix.pbwiki.com/
And an unofficial Mvix community site has been setup at:
http://www.mvixcommunity.com/
The community site will not concentrate on hacking the Mvix but some hacking content should appear there as well.